Designer & Fashion Insiders Behavior (PLEASE READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING)

[JPineapple]

Isabel Marant is being accused of plagiarism by indigenous artisans from Mexico.

 

[JPineapple]

 

[dior_couture1245]

Who cares. So tired of this game.

 

[FelipeV]

I'm glad, someone needs to stop this woman, her whole brand is all about plagiarism.

 

[sixtdaily]

Not the first time
She won the trial back then

 

[Marc10]

Wouldn't be far better if she partnered with local artisans so they would provide her the craftsmanship? Many designers have made similar projects. It would help them economically and with visibility, and the pieces would be more precious. Not to mention a win in the PR department.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

I don't get how people don't care about this stuff. It's not just about "u stole my design i did it first" it's about the the artisans and PEOPLE who are generally of a lower economic status having a monster conglomerate come in and make money off of their existence.

If you were poor and all of a sudden ex. LVMH came and was like ima take this person's identity and sell this and make 100000000s of dollars for myself hehe would you just be like oh well

e x p l o i t a t i o n

we might just be past the point of no return w this sh*t ugh it is really discouraging

 

[Lola701]

I don't get how people don't care about this stuff. It's not just about "u stole my design i did it first" it's about the the artisans and PEOPLE who are generally of a lower economic status having a monster conglomerate come in and make money off of their existence.

If you were poor and all of a sudden ex. LVMH came and was like ima take this person's identity and sell this and make 100000000s of dollars for myself hehe would you just be like oh well

e x p l o i t a t i o n

we might just be past the point of no return w this sh*t ugh it is really discouraging

But as sixtdaily said, she won the trial. The cultural appropriation of exploitation thing is a moral issue on social media that has no weight in court. That print is a public domain print...
IM is an independent brand but I don’t think the angle of David vs Goliath is fitting here.
This is the ultimate problem with fashion. There’s no intellectual property over prints that have centuries of existence.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

^^ As if current european courts and laws would ever be in favor of marginalized people lmao. It is a big problem in fashion and everywhere else because people that have money and power, whether if be consciously or unconsciously, lack the basic respect for those that do not. This might sound radical af but just because white parisians enforce the "law" about "intellectual property" does not make the law a fact by nature making it okay to exploit people. These issues actually run very deep. The IM brand can win whatever case it wants but that prolly won't change how the rest of us see how they morally operate.

 

[sixtdaily]

^^ As if current european courts and laws would ever be in favor of marginalized people lmao. It is a big problem in fashion and everywhere else because people that have money and power, whether if be consciously or unconsciously, lack the basic respect for those that do not. This might sound radical af but just because white parisians enforce the "law" about "intellectual property" does not make the law a fact by nature making it okay to exploit people. These issues actually run very deep. The IM brand can win whatever case it wants but that prolly won't change how the rest of us see how they morally operate.

It's not just "white parisian" brands, this is a recurring issue, and even Mexican fashion brands aiming to promote MX culture on a global scale have been accused of stealing traditional designs (check Pineda Covalín). Who owns culture? Maybe the Mexican gov could protect its indigenous communities by providing them sui generis protection for their design (and more generally knowledge), like many of its Latam neighbors have done, instead of whining in front of the media every year that the white and rich people are exploiting them. Just a thought

 

[MulletProof]

^ that's a Senator in the video doing just that, presenting evidence in a case they will submit it to the foreign affairs' office, so they take it up with France, where guess what will happen next (see susseinmcswanny's post).

 

[sixtdaily]

^ The same will happen again, because it's not a matter you solve with press conferences, letters and angry tweets, but by providing legal protection to the communities. The current mexican law states the use of these artistic and craft works is free (!) and doesn't cover the case of third parties' use in other countries.

 

[Lola701]

^^ As if current european courts and laws would ever be in favor of marginalized people lmao. It is a big problem in fashion and everywhere else because people that have money and power, whether if be consciously or unconsciously, lack the basic respect for those that do not. This might sound radical af but just because white parisians enforce the "law" about "intellectual property" does not make the law a fact by nature making it okay to exploit people. These issues actually run very deep. The IM brand can win whatever case it wants but that prolly won't change how the rest of us see how they morally operate.

I totally get what you are saying don’t get me wrong. The problem with me with this kind of issue is that the power dynamic always seems so obvious and easy to settle when it’s a big conglomerate of white people against small groups of people of color. It’s very good and bad, black and white type of situation when for me, as in everything, there’s a grey area.

If as a society, we decided to attribute intellectual property to cultural groups, it needs to be a worldwide affair. I will use a basic example.
Today, if someone wants to use a Picasso print, he has to deal with Picasso’s estate through the foundation. If such organizations are created to protect those marginalized groups, governments are going to be involved...Obviously and I’m not sure all parties will benefit equally from the opportunities.

But back to the power dynamic. If an African designer decides to be inspired by Mexican tribes prints...Are those issues still valid? Can an African American designer reference an Kenyan print or Senegalese fabric in his work and not face the same issue? As a black person, he/she can claim an certain idea of heritage, and he/she is part of a minority in the entity of America but nevertheless, the power dynamic is different with the people referenced in his work.

I think we need to stop the calling out culture and maybe worship collaborations with the idea of long-lasting opportunities. The problem with that idea is that brands can’t necessary keep up with the pace of the industry in terms of production. It’s impossible to collaborate with every culture, countries you decides to take inspiration from. But maybe it’s time for governments to develop the idea of manufactures for their countries and create partnerships with conglomerates in order to put things in order.

 

[MulletProof]

^ third paragraph is a bit too relaxed, it starts with one example and ends up justifying an easier-to-justify different thing.

Workshops and tours around communities are open for everyone and yes, free in some cases but there are international trademark laws. Small producers/artisans are often protected by local law or small state agreements, which can be taken up on a federal level with the ability to make them an international/fair trade/trademark case. Things become ambiguous outside of that country, so countries submit them to the conventions/agreements expecting compliance. Again, because they are seen as ambiguous or a non-issue by the public and foreigners, the governments of citizens or companies violating these laws make little effort to comply or even go out of their way to protect them if significant profit is involved.

One good way for a French person to gain perspective is to talk about another equally "whiny" issue based on traditions (again, nothing, traditions only mean something to those raised under them)-: Traditional food. The French, Spanish and Italians hammer all year long about traditionally French/Spanish/Italian cheese. In the case of the US for example, where authentic camembert is rarely sold, companies just grab the recipe, grab a cow lol, and you've got camembert. That the French think it's important that camembert production ONLY takes place in specific towns of Normandy or that the cow sees daylight for a certain amount every year means next to nothing to American cheese makers. They have a cow, a recipe to achieve taste/texture that they acquired at a cheap/open tour in some facility in Normandy (which they accessed pretending to be tourists and taken advantage of the good faith of the French producers) so, why not. So this happens with brie, camembert, gouda, manchego, parmesan cheese, and you have the Italians/French/Spanish producers making all kinds of tantrums all the time, threatening to backfire, submitting requests, pressing on international trademark law. Americans (as far as I'm concerned) protect their dairy industry just as adamantly so the approach is 'force me' (and that's very hard to do, especially with the current, more childish government). The ideal thing would be do establish partnerships where both can gain (assuming the American makers are determined to sell camembert at all costs), or to make it easier to import actual camembert (again, won't happen if there's preference towards the American company that makes easy profit). Finally, the long-term problem is that people become used to the 'fake' thing.. when you as a consumer start preferring gouda made in the US (just saying this is laughable for the Dutch, I know) as it is much more tolerable than the strong flavor of the real thing.

 

[FelipeV]

Well, morally speaking, Isabel Marant is disgusting. Most of her products are not "inspired by" but identical copies. She probably has the best lawyers and she knows she'll get away with it, meanwhile the indigenous communities struggles to sell their products to tourist who ask them "a better price" and just to eat something that day. I'll hope mexican goverment do something about it.

 

[Benn98]

Well, Gouda pretty much sums up the Dutch in a nutshell - bland and pale. No wonder it's one of their famous cheeses.

I'm of the opinion that the onus should be on Mexico to protect the work of their artisans, but I still don't get how Marant saw it perfectly fine to just replicate the prints without tracing the source and giving them an opportunity to be part of the process. I just don't get how, in 2020, that thought didn't cross her mind. Clearly it was all about wanting to keep all the profit to herself. Fine, come up with your own ideas then! Morals and capitalism are no longer mutually exclusive. Not in 2020.

And yes, she's not LVMH but it's still a David and Goliath situation because she has the upper hand in more ways than one. Her status as a respected French designer alone (not even counting running a solid business) means that her government will go above to protect her interests.

 

[JPineapple]

Honestly, here in Mexico we are tired of this sh*t. Tired of people from other countries stealing our culture and acting like they can do every they want because there’s no law that protect the intellectual property of our cultural legacy. We are f*ck*ng tired of our government ignoring us when we claim protection to WHAT’S OURS.

Obviously, most of the media and people from other countries outside America don’t care about the issue and we all know the reason why.

 

[MulletProof]

Well, Gouda pretty much sums up the Dutch in a nutshell - bland and pale. No wonder it's one of their famous cheeses.

you're terrible .. I still find gouda 'strong', not bärlauchkäse obscene level of strong but not something relaxed and seemingly approachable as the Dutch tend to be.

It doesn't come down to Mexico for me. For starters, saying 'try having legal protections next time' is just a different 'I stole from you, try having a better surveillance system next time' lol, it doesn't work that way, and the French know this better than anyone being the legally protected, international cheese crybabies... who still get plagiarized. Some things are treasured by a country and considered meaningless everywhere else. French producers probably get upset knowing their trademarked products carry a 'Made in the USA' label somewhere despite multiple legal efforts to stop it, and same goes with indigenous communities in Mexico with textiles and a technique of their own that also functions as their primary source of income. One can call them crybabies, whiny, fault them for not being legally protected in their countries or for failing to get their timid governments to stand up to Americans, it doesn't make plagiarism right and we should strive for integrity, especially given the current state of fashion.

I do agree these communities could take a harder line, like... triple screen the French citizens joining these workshops, they're the repeated offenders. The government could also go populist and green light dairy producers to go off naming 'brie' and 'camembert' any ball of pasteurized milk they make just like Americans, it should even things up.. who even owns culture after all.

Honestly, Isabel Marant just needs to get her act together. I'm not surprised integrity has been rapidly eroding when the Marant girl looks passé and simple-minded enough to keep a Kate Moss in 90s+Frida Kahlo pinterest board. She's on autopilot and has based her worth on theft.. when she's capable of being genuinely creative, it's been like 10 years since she presented something substantial but I still think she is talented and capable of just..pushing herself.

 

[fashionista-ta]

International cheese crybabies

Part of the problem here is that a traditional indigenous worldview doesn't even include property and therefore property rights. Assigning property rights to culture by definition forces our culture of property and rights onto others. Already there's a misfit. There's a similar cultural misfit with Americans and Europeans where food is concerned. McDonalds is older than many of our food traditions.

Proper aged Gouda is definitely not bland! It's super delicious ...

 

[fashionista-ta]

PS Benn, your assignment is to buy some 2-7 year aged Gouda, and report back Be sure to look for Gouda that has little crystals in it (they're white, you can see them). It's quite heavenly.