Celine F/W 2023.24 Los Angeles

[volft]

 

[LadyJunon]

Worst cinematography ever!

 

[Mutterlein]

Oh man this is so cringe.

You know, I get that he loves rock 'n roll and that he will never ever betray it, but there has got to be a cooler way to do it than this.

This is fake, pretend cool.

It's not actually cool.

Even though they got Iggy Pop and The Strokes, something about it feels really artificial, like a Ralph Lauren show. Very Disney.

 

[volft]

This is fake, pretend cool.

I have to agree, and say you're not wrong at all. If you really think about Hedi's work, it is all very inauthentic, and it might actually be completely the opposite of the ethos of punk. This is the establishment repacking punk/rock and selling it to people who largely aren't cool.

Even though they got Iggy Pop and The Strokes, something about it feels really artificial, like a Ralph Lauren show. Very Disney.

I feel that Iggy Pop and The Strokes are tools Hedi uses to try to imbue some authenticity into his inauthentic pieces. I like to think Hedi is similar to a magician who is using sleight-of-hand to trick the audience to seeing something that isn't what the truth actually is. When you start dissecting the magic trick, you start seeing it for what it really is. It is all smoke and mirrors. That said, I never like watching people debunk magic tricks because I see the sleight-of-hand, and illusions, as an art performance. I'm in awe of how effective Hedi's sleight-of-hand is. He has the people eating out of the palm of his hand, and I respect the finesse in his techniques.

 

[Kimihiro]

No. I applaud him for standing up to it but no. The video sucks. There’s no progress with anything. It’s all pastiche. You can’t fault the clothes for being nice for what they are but that’s it.

 

[tricotineacetat]

The collection's been shown a week ago and whoever wanted to see the runway looks, did so by this point. What's the purpose of showing a teaser clip like that then? It all feels a bit old news to me, honestly...

 

[volft]

The collection's been shown a week ago and whoever wanted to see the runway looks, did so by this point. What's the purpose of showing a teaser clip like that then? It all feels a bit old news to me, honestly...

If you're asking what's the point of video format when photos of the looks are already available, I think the difference to me is like comic book vs live adaptation of the source material. Photos really don't do justice, but really nothing will beat being able to see it in person, obviously.

In a perfect world, I don't think Hedi wants people to look at the photos before the video drops. Hedi only did this for the Wiltern collection because he can't control people snapping pictures and videos on their phones. He likely wanted to get the official pictures out so he can control the image as much as possible. You will notice no photos of the ss23 Saint-Tropez collection was posted on the Celine website initially. He really wants people to experience the video first, and then show the pictures later. Photos are finally up on the website for that collection. You can look at the thread for that collection and no photos were shared yet.

If you're asking about the teaser, the focus is not actually on the clothes, but on the attendees. It is both a flex on who Celine was able to invite, and to use the attendee's status to boost the image of the brand. This is marketing. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I feel like you already understand all of this, and you come across as being deliberately obtuse.

 

[thismortalcoil]

I'm so sick to death of these parades of elevated fast fashion clothes. Is this the best that we can hope for in terms of his fashion POV, because sorry, the evolution is pretty damn stagnant and I dont see anything he's put out in the last years ever going down in the history books. So, Hedi knows how to sell clothes, great, but it's all just so utterly depressing. How many more years are we going to have to bear it?

 

[volft]

I'm so sick to death of these parades of elevated fast fashion clothes.

In general, fast fashion copies anything commercial. By saying that you are against elevated fashion fashion implies you are against the idea of fashion being commercial. While I can't say you're wrong for not liking fashion that is commercial, I think you're wrong by implying that fashion should only be one thing. I think there is enough room in the fashion world for diversity that can include Hedi without taking away from other designers. If you don't like Hedi's point of view, there's nothing stopping you from spending your time elsewhere.

the evolution is pretty damn stagnant and I dont see anything he's put out in the last years ever going down in the history books

I predict that his first Celine Homme collection, which is Hedi looking into TikTok, will go down in history similar to Marc Jacobs' Grunge collection. Your point of view thinking how irrelevant Hedi is will also go down in history similar to how critics negatively judged Marc's collection, and then later had to rescind their opinion. It is all just history repeating itself.

I also think his successful brand renovation strategy will be something that will be talked about by those actually in the industry.

How many more years are we going to have to bear it?

You make it sound like you're being forced to keep up with what Hedi is doing.

 

[LadyJunon]

In general, fast fashion copies anything commercial. By saying that you are against elevated fashion fashion implies you are against the idea of fashion being commercial. While I can't say you're wrong for not liking fashion that is commercial, I think you're wrong by implying that fashion should only be one thing. I think there is enough room in the fashion world for diversity that can include Hedi without taking away from other designers. If you don't like Hedi's point of view, there's nothing stopping you from spending your time elsewhere.


I predict that his first Celine Homme collection, which is Hedi looking into TikTok, will go down in history similar to Marc Jacobs' Grunge collection. Your point of view thinking how irrelevant Hedi is will also go down in history similar to how critics negatively judged Marc's collection, and then later had to rescind their opinion. It is all just history repeating itself.

I also think his successful brand renovation strategy will be something that will be talked about by those actually in the industry.


You make it sound like you're being forced to keep up with what Hedi is doing.

I actually enjoy what Hedi does for menswear and I can tell that he has fun doing it. It's his womenswear that's meh, but I can accept that for Celine (it bothered me much more at YSL).

 

[volft]

It's his womenswear that's meh, but I can accept that for Celine (it bothered me much more at YSL).

I feel like Hedi's story for Saint Laurent was ended prematurely. His whole plan was to have ready-to-wear (Saint Laurent) and couture (Yves Saint Laurent). I still wonder what led to the break up with Kering, as the fallout was nasty. And with the Balenciaga scandal, I'm kind of glad Hedi is not part of Kering anymore.

Hedi will always feel like the only successor approved by Yves himself, and I think it is because they both share a similar design philosophy towards ready-to-wear, capturing the everyday Parisienne style. I do agree that this Rive Gauche-style of design feels exactly also what Celine Vipiana believed in. I've always believed the narrative that Hedi disrespects the house codes as misleading and false. I feel like he reinterprets them in a very honest and genuine way that respects the legacy of the house.

I actually enjoy what Hedi does for menswear

I actually think his Celine Homme is quite modern, fresh, and more experimental. Despite the name, I know they are targeting women with the Celine Homme line as women are invited to the pre-order events, and their global ambassador, Lisa, is given Celine Homme pieces to wear.

I think it is quite smart to be able to have both Celine and Celine Homme. At first when I saw the launch of Celine Homme, it was like a smack to the face because it felt like Hedi was going backwards. I misinterpreted this as a renaming of the menswear for purely marketing reasons to assure men that the brand Celine does have menswear, despite how the brand's name is an obviously woman's name. He didn't do that at all with Saint Laurent. There was just Saint Laurent. There was no Saint Laurent Homme. It came across as them thinking men needed to be told what is for them, and that they couldn't think for themselves. It is clear now that Celine Homme is distinct from Celine menswear, and is another offering to expand their reach.

 

[yslforever]

I feel like Hedi's story for Saint Laurent was ended prematurely. His whole plan was to have ready-to-wear (Saint Laurent) and couture (Yves Saint Laurent). I still wonder what led to the break up with Kering, as the fallout was nasty. And with the Balenciaga scandal, I'm kind of glad Hedi is not part of Kering anymore.

Hedi will always feel like the only successor approved by Yves himself,

Hedi Slimane wanted full creative control of everything under the Yves Saint Laurent umbrella brand. But it was not possible, Kering doesn't own Yves Saint Laurent's haute couture. Pierre Bergé made sure it wasn't sold to Gucci Group and remains entirely under Yves's control. The haute couture closed in 2002, Tom Ford lasted another 2 years at the RTW division, but Kering was never able to buy back the haute couture during Yves or Pierre lives.
When Kering/Pinault purchased Gucci group, there were heavily leveraged and immediately sold the YSL Beauty division to L'Oréal, which is running the beauty without asking Kering for the artistic direction.
In 2012 when Kering asked Hedi Slimane to take over Saint Laurent, they kinda promised him they were going to buy back the haute couture and the beauty, and give him 'carte blanche" on everything, which they never did.
In 2014, YSL Beauty launched "Black Opium" practically without consulting or coordinating with Hedi Slimane, though L'Oreal contracted Edie Campbell, his then muse. He hated everything of the perfume launch: the commercials, the clothes, the music, the bottle, the model, etc... tbh L'Oreal really cheapened his vision.
That was the breaking point, he stopped doing the bow after the shows and realized Kering would never be able (or willing) to fulfill their promises. He left 20 months later with the nasty fallout and the litigation that Kering lost.

I can assure you Yves was very pleased with Hedi's vision of RTW, as you said, but he also loved Alber Elbaz very much, for a dreamier approach on RTW and couture. Let me remind you that, at those times, Hedi was uniquely a menswear designer and started womenswear 15 years later. Yves never actually saw a Slimane womenswear collection.
His plan was to keep the haute couture for himself for as long as he felt, the womenswear for Alber and the menswear for Hedi. His succession plan was quite clear, he wanted to give Alber the haute couture and keep Hedi on the RTW floor.
Obviously Tom Ford's monstruous ego ousted both of them after only 3 years and when Yves retired from the haute couture, there's was nobody left, Hedi was at Dior, and Alber about to get Lanvin.

 

[LadyJunon]

Hedi Slimane wanted full creative control of everything under the Yves Saint Laurent umbrella brand. But it was not possible, Kering doesn't own Yves Saint Laurent's haute couture. Pierre Bergé made sure it wasn't sold to Gucci Group and remains entirely under Yves's control. The haute couture closed in 2002, Tom Ford lasted another 2 years at the RTW division, but Kering was never able to buy back the haute couture during Yves or Pierre lives.
When Kering/Pinault purchased Gucci group, there were heavily leveraged and immediately sold the YSL Beauty division to L'Oréal, which is running the beauty without asking Kering for the artistic direction.
In 2012 when Kering asked Hedi Slimane to take over Saint Laurent, they kinda promised him they were going to buy back the haute couture and the beauty, and give him 'carte blanche" on everything, which they never did.
In 2014, YSL Beauty launched "Black Opium" practically without consulting or coordinating with Hedi Slimane, though L'Oreal contracted Edie Campbell, his then muse. He hated everything of the perfume launch: the commercials, the clothes, the music, the bottle, the model, etc... tbh L'Oreal really cheapened his vision.
That was the breaking point, he stopped doing the bow after the shows and realized Kering would never be able (or willing) to fulfill their promises. He left 20 months later with the nasty fallout and the litigation that Kering lost.

I can assure you Yves was very pleased with Hedi's vision of RTW, as you said, but he also loved Alber Elbaz very much, for a dreamier approach on RTW and couture. Let me remind you that, at those times, Hedi was uniquely a menswear designer and started womenswear 15 years later. Yves never actually saw a Slimane womenswear collection.
His plan was to keep the haute couture for himself for as long as he felt, the womenswear for Alber and the menswear for Hedi. His succession plan was quite clear, he wanted to give Alber the haute couture and keep Hedi on the RTW floor.
Obviously Tom Ford's monstruous ego ousted both of them after only 3 years and when Yves retired from the haute couture, there's was nobody left, Hedi was at Dior, and Alber about to get Lanvin.

Gucci being the villain as per usual.

Also how did YSL manage to keep their Haute Couture division away from Kering's control after Saint Laurent and Bergé's deaths?

 

[Lola701]

^^
Pierre Bergé was rich himself and he gave the control of the foundation (really the intellectual and physical property) to Madison Cox, his husband and longtime partner.
Pinault quickly realized that Bergé « pouvoir de nuisance » was important and managed to work around that. It’s a win win situation as having good relationships allows them to have access to archives, and for the foundation, they have the support of KERING for the exhibitions and special projects.
It’s a bit the same thing that is happening at Alaia. The foundation run by Carla Sozzani and Alaia’s partner is separated from the brand but they work in great collaboration. Obviously, Alaia wasn’t as rich as Pierre Bergé but it’s the same.
Everything works as long as the activities are separated. The foundation doesn’t sell clothes…Even if during Tom’s tenure, Berge sometimes tried it.

Hedi Slimane wanted full creative control of everything under the Yves Saint Laurent umbrella brand. But it was not possible, Kering doesn't own Yves Saint Laurent's haute couture. Pierre Bergé made sure it wasn't sold to Gucci Group and remains entirely under Yves's control. The haute couture closed in 2002, Tom Ford lasted another 2 years at the RTW division, but Kering was never able to buy back the haute couture during Yves or Pierre lives.
When Kering/Pinault purchased Gucci group, there were heavily leveraged and immediately sold the YSL Beauty division to L'Oréal, which is running the beauty without asking Kering for the artistic direction.
In 2012 when Kering asked Hedi Slimane to take over Saint Laurent, they kinda promised him they were going to buy back the haute couture and the beauty, and give him 'carte blanche" on everything, which they never did.
In 2014, YSL Beauty launched "Black Opium" practically without consulting or coordinating with Hedi Slimane, though L'Oreal contracted Edie Campbell, his then muse. He hated everything of the perfume launch: the commercials, the clothes, the music, the bottle, the model, etc... tbh L'Oreal really cheapened his vision.
That was the breaking point, he stopped doing the bow after the shows and realized Kering would never be able (or willing) to fulfill their promises. He left 20 months later with the nasty fallout and the litigation that Kering lost.

I can assure you Yves was very pleased with Hedi's vision of RTW, as you said, but he also loved Alber Elbaz very much, for a dreamier approach on RTW and couture. Let me remind you that, at those times, Hedi was uniquely a menswear designer and started womenswear 15 years later. Yves never actually saw a Slimane womenswear collection.
His plan was to keep the haute couture for himself for as long as he felt, the womenswear for Alber and the menswear for Hedi. His succession plan was quite clear, he wanted to give Alber the haute couture and keep Hedi on the RTW floor.
Obviously Tom Ford's monstruous ego ousted both of them after only 3 years and when Yves retired from the haute couture, there's was nobody left, Hedi was at Dior, and Alber about to get Lanvin.

Actually, Tom wanted Hedi to do the menswear when he was eyeing the job. Pierre Berge handpicked Hedi and Alber. Hedi was working with Jean Jacques Picard and Amber at Guy Laroche. I don’t think Yves had anything to do with any of those hiring anyway because the boss was Bergé…

Bergé wasn’t naive or blindsided by Tom’s intentions. That’s why he invited him at the Couture shows in 1999, that’s why they attended Alber’s show for YSL together. But Tom wanted Hedi to do the menswear. Hedi has always been firm with his vision and feared to compromise under the creative vision of Tom Ford. He had real respect for Bergé and Bergé gave him confidence in a way but Bergé was really the chef d’orchestre during Alber and Hedi’s tenure as he was the one for example responsible for the campaigns…

Tom fired Alber once they bought the brand but Hedi left. That’s why for example Tom’s real first menswear collection was FW2001. They only did a capsule for the SS01 menswear season and he presented the resort collection personally to Yves and Bergé prior to having a show in 2000.

 

[yslforever]

"I don’t think Yves had anything to do with any of those hiring anyway because the boss was Bergé…"
Pierre was super authoritarian but he would have never hired Hedi or Slimane without convincing Yves first. In some weird, twisted manners, Yves always had the first and last world.

 

[LadyJunon]

"I don’t think Yves had anything to do with any of those hiring anyway because the boss was Bergé…"
Pierre was super authoritarian but he would have never hired Hedi or Slimane without convincing Yves first. In some weird, twisted manners, Yves always had the first and last world.

I didn't know they became a single person after Tom Ford incident./j

 

[Lola701]

"I don’t think Yves had anything to do with any of those hiring anyway because the boss was Bergé…"
Pierre was super authoritarian but he would have never hired Hedi or Slimane without convincing Yves first. In some weird, twisted manners, Yves always had the first and last world.

By the mid to late 90’s, Yves was barely to not involved at all in the RTW activities. The HC was his bubble and everything Pierre did was to make the HC operations work..From the licensing, to the collaboration with 3 Suisses ( or La Redoute). Even the sale to Pinault. Bergé used his power to endless extend to elevate the HC heritage of YSL (fashion show at Stade de France anyone).

Yves was really the king in the HC because Pierre run the show behind the scenes but best believe he had little to no involvement in RTW. But he trusted Pierre because he knew Pierre had his best interest at heart after all…

Yves lived a really reclusive life at the time with a life between Rue de Babylone and Avenue Marceau. And Alber or Hedi weren’t Berge’s first attempt…I don’t remember his name but there was a designer in the early 90’s he was supporting and who supposedly designed the RTW…But he was a flop.

The dynamic between Pierre and Yves was really different from the one between Giancarlo Giammetti and Valentino for example.

 

[yslforever]

Also how did YSL manage to keep their Haute Couture division away from Kering's control after Saint Laurent and Bergé's deaths?[/QUOTE]

I didn't know they became a single person after Tom Ford incident./j

Sorry meant Hedi or Alber.
As for the haute couture division it was a separate company, that Pierre and Yves personnally owned, and that Pierre specifically bequeath to Madison Cox in his will, among many other things. So it belongs to Madison Cox personnally and not the Foundation, with many archives, rights and trademarks too.
Obviously Kering has made offers too.

 

[Mutterlein]

Hedi Slimane wanted full creative control of everything under the Yves Saint Laurent umbrella brand. But it was not possible, Kering doesn't own Yves Saint Laurent's haute couture. Pierre Bergé made sure it wasn't sold to Gucci Group and remains entirely under Yves's control. The haute couture closed in 2002, Tom Ford lasted another 2 years at the RTW division, but Kering was never able to buy back the haute couture during Yves or Pierre lives.
When Kering/Pinault purchased Gucci group, there were heavily leveraged and immediately sold the YSL Beauty division to L'Oréal, which is running the beauty without asking Kering for the artistic direction.
In 2012 when Kering asked Hedi Slimane to take over Saint Laurent, they kinda promised him they were going to buy back the haute couture and the beauty, and give him 'carte blanche" on everything, which they never did.
In 2014, YSL Beauty launched "Black Opium" practically without consulting or coordinating with Hedi Slimane, though L'Oreal contracted Edie Campbell, his then muse. He hated everything of the perfume launch: the commercials, the clothes, the music, the bottle, the model, etc... tbh L'Oreal really cheapened his vision.
That was the breaking point, he stopped doing the bow after the shows and realized Kering would never be able (or willing) to fulfill their promises. He left 20 months later with the nasty fallout and the litigation that Kering lost.

I can assure you Yves was very pleased with Hedi's vision of RTW, as you said, but he also loved Alber Elbaz very much, for a dreamier approach on RTW and couture. Let me remind you that, at those times, Hedi was uniquely a menswear designer and started womenswear 15 years later. Yves never actually saw a Slimane womenswear collection.
His plan was to keep the haute couture for himself for as long as he felt, the womenswear for Alber and the menswear for Hedi. His succession plan was quite clear, he wanted to give Alber the haute couture and keep Hedi on the RTW floor.
Obviously Tom Ford's monstruous ego ousted both of them after only 3 years and when Yves retired from the haute couture, there's was nobody left, Hedi was at Dior, and Alber about to get Lanvin.

I'm sorry but a lot of this is inaccurate. Pinault owned the couture business.

Saint Laurent thanked French billionaire Francois Pinault, whose holding company controls the haute couture line. Pinault's Pinault-Printemps-Redoute also owns 53.2 percent of Gucci, which in turn owns the Saint Laurent ready-to-wear label and other activities such as perfume, makeup and accessories.

"I want to thank Mr. Francois Pinault and express my gratitude to him for permitting me to put a harmonious end to this wonderful adventure, and we both agree that the haute couture of this house must stop with my departure," Saint Laurent said.

The haute couture business represents only a tiny percentage of products sold under the Yves Saint Laurent name. But since the couture business is privately owned, its revenue figures were not publicly released.

From "Yves Saint Laurent Announces Retirement" by the Associated Press Jan 7th 2002

Also, PPR also owned the beauty business. They sold it to L'Oreal in 2008.

 

[Mutterlein]

By the mid to late 90’s, Yves was barely to not involved at all in the RTW activities. The HC was his bubble and everything Pierre did was to make the HC operations work..From the licensing, to the collaboration with 3 Suisses ( or La Redoute). Even the sale to Pinault. Bergé used his power to endless extend to elevate the HC heritage of YSL (fashion show at Stade de France anyone).

Yves was really the king in the HC because Pierre run the show behind the scenes but best believe he had little to no involvement in RTW. But he trusted Pierre because he knew Pierre had his best interest at heart after all…

Yves lived a really reclusive life at the time with a life between Rue de Babylone and Avenue Marceau. And Alber or Hedi weren’t Berge’s first attempt…I don’t remember his name but there was a designer in the early 90’s he was supporting and who supposedly designed the RTW…But he was a flop.

The dynamic between Pierre and Yves was really different from the one between Giancarlo Giammetti and Valentino for example.

Berge didn't sell YSL to PPR, he sold it to Sanofi in 1993 and they sold it to PPR in 1999.