High heels won’t help achieve high ambitions

[Lite_Brite]

I agree.

Lite Brite what you are articulating is a very Western, first generation feminist movement statement. Many other types of feminists have different views of the matter including the views that PinkGoddess stated.

Race is not equal to gender. Its not racist to say that women are different then men, its biological. Its also not necessarily evil or bad or downputting as many seem to think. Women bear children, men don't. In this and other ways I think its more anti-women to not acknowledge those biological truisms by pretending we are the same.

first generation feminist? did you mean First Wave feminist? that's completely wrong so I hope you'll clarify.

I'm aware that there exists more than one type of feminism although I really do not consider what PinkGoddess said to be one of those types. you're likely referring to cultural feminism? difference feminism maybe?

if you really would like to bust out scientific journals and start accounting for the biological differences between men and women, which obviously exist to a degree that we may or may not agree upon, I'd love to. but I don't think this is the thread.

what we're really talking about here is people (women or men or etc) being forced to behave one way or another. I sport 4 inch heels, it's no problem. I like it and embrace many popular notions of femininity while rejecting others, just as anyone should be free to do.

my main point is that PinkGoddess' summary of femininity/masculinity is incredibly reductive and, frankly, sounds ignorant to my ears. a larger number of people than she accounted for reject the almighty 21st century concepts of who should do what based on sex/gender. not everybody wants to live in this hypersexual hetero normative world where women are reduced to their image and men to their strength. those who do like that are free to do so in their little slice of life, but to take issue when people complain about being forced into little boxes is ridiculous.

I also liked The_Ida's point that the workplace should not be such a sexual environment. human beings certainly take their sexualities with them wherever they go, but that doesn't mean we have to make them the center of every activity.

 

[sergeantkero]

omg LOL!! i feel sexy when im wearing high heels and high heels makes your legs look very very long haha they look great on our legs. hahaha those shoes are made for confidence booster. hahaha

 

[PinkGoddess]

^^^ ITA it's actually pretty regressive to deny/reject specific feminine characteristics. these characteristics do not in any way mean we are not better than men.

You just said yourself that there are specific gender-based characteristics. Accepting that involves rejecting the notion that men and women possess equal characteristics.

Women are not inferior to men overall, just different. I never even brought up inferiority (and I don't see how valuing women for their beauty can even be taken that way).

 

[PinkGoddess]

You could use the same logic regarding racism. It fits perfectly. There have been racism in all cultures, the standard argument being that the other race is different and therefore must me treated differently. There are some genetic differences inbetween races - does that mean that Asians should have other rights than Africans? One could argue that Asians and Africans ARE different...

BTW I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist.

The differences between the races are purely physical, and the racial discrimination that has existed throughout history has not involved either specific races, or specific attributes assigned to races. When groups are discriminated against, the primary aim is simply to keep them powerless and assign arbitrary negative attributes, which is not at all the aim in a society that assigns women different roles.

There is nothing at all wrong with being a feminist, that is why I referred to particular feminists as "so-called".

 

[PinkGoddess]

maybe 100 years ago we all should have just thrown up our hands and said "**** it, women have always been dominated by men in every culture (which isn't actually true but for the sake of argument I'll go with it), so let's just relinquish power in every sector of society". there is great diversity amongst women, I'd venture to say between me and you, and I don't care to be grouped in with you as if we fall under the same umbrella as human beings with the exact same nature, the same wants and needs etc.

we need to keep fighting for a humanistic view of every individual instead of acting like what is "natural" is always good.

where do you draw the line for when we should give up? how far is the expectation that we wear heels in the office from the expectation that we just stay out of the office altogether? I'm for expanding choice for both men and women in how they live their lives, and I know it's worth pursuing because we've not stopped progressing yet.

I consider the notion that those who dominate (i.e. lead) a certain group or society are immediately superior, very untrue and also anti-feminist, considering that men are more adapted for fighting, both physically and psychologically. It is those who believe that females must adapt themselves to be more like men in order to be "empowered" that are implicating inferiority.

 

[PinkGoddess]

my main point is that PinkGoddess' summary of femininity/masculinity is incredibly reductive and, frankly, sounds ignorant to my ears. a larger number of people than she accounted for reject the almighty 21st century concepts of who should do what based on sex/gender. not everybody wants to live in this hypersexual hetero normative world where women are reduced to their image and men to their strength. those who do like that are free to do so in their little slice of life, but to take issue when people complain about being forced into little boxes is ridiculous.

Who's talking about reducing men or women to anything? Acknowledging differences is not defining people by them. Or do you consider the acknowledgement of women as child bearers reducing them to reproductive machines?

 

[Festat]

Denying differences between men and women is pointless, honestly. It's like saying blue is black. It's an issue of good sense, not sexism, feminism, femism or anything.

And, trust me, many men who have to wear a suit and formal shoes everyday don't find it very comfy.

 

[iluvjeisa]

Isn't it obvious that high heels are just another peacock attribute to the Homo sapiens female? It perks up the *** and shows that the woman is making a considerable effort to please men and compete with her peers. Of course men do too, but considerably less on the physical level.

In reality, except for what we can all see, precious little is *known* (and I mean this as reproducible, reliable results) about genetic racial/gender differences - because this is a field in its infancy and the draft of the human genome has only been around for 10 years. And even when we do have access to methods that will enable us to understand these issues better, this science interferes with political agendas more than any other natural science. So reliable results are going to be hard to come by for years to come, but conjecture and wishful thinking are already rampant and it will get worse.

 

[Les_Sucettes]

. It is those who believe that females must adapt themselves to be more like men in order to be "empowered" that are implicating inferiority.

Well but i fail to see in what the way the fact that men and women are different has anything to do with high heels. Both men and women were not made to wear high heels. Expecting a women to wear high heels, just because she's a women, is indeed totally sexist.

 

[hautechild]

Isn't it obvious that high heels are just another peacock attribute to the Homo sapiens female? It perks up the *** and shows that the woman is making a considerable effort to please men

I disagree. Men factor exactly 0% into my decision to wear heels.

 

[j'adore_couture]

Comfort > height IMO, that's why I don't choose to wear heels on a regular basis.

 

[from: sophia]

I disagree. Men factor exactly 0% into my decision to wear heels.

so true I wear them because they are fun and beautiful and who doesn't want to have a view point from a few inches higher up. On the other hand I do think some people where heels for men and they shouldn't do what you want to do for yourself not for another person.

 

[iluvjeisa]

I disagree. Men factor exactly 0% into my decision to wear heels.

That's not the point. Our sense for aesthetics is determined by social factors. The reason why high heels are even used is because it perks upp the ***, shapes up the legs, makes a person shaplier and taller and adds to a nice female sway of the hips.

You may not feel that or think about that as you are selecting your clothes, and indeed it might not even be the subconscious that's at work, but the reason that they are there to choose from is simply the sex appeal that they add.

Why else would it be that we have high heels and that that goes with the most sexually appealing of female outfits? There is an infinite universe of shapes out there - why aren't shoes tilted slightly in the other direction, or are huge in width?

 

[hautechild]

That's not the point. Our sense for aesthetics is determined by social factors. The reason why high heels are even used is because it perks upp the ***, shapes up the legs, makes a person shaplier and taller and adds to a nice female sway of the hips.

You may not feel that or think about that as you are selecting your clothes, and indeed it might not even be the subconscious that's at work, but the reason that they are there to choose from is simply that.

Why else would it be that we have high heels and that that goes with the most sexually appealing of female outfits? There is an infinite universe of shapes out there - why aren't shoes tilted slightly in the other direction, or are huge in width?

How it that not the point?

It was said that women wear heels for men.

I don't. I wear them because I like heels, yes I like how they look and how they make me look and work with an outfit. That is nothing to do with men and frankly it's both offensive in a gernal sense, and heterosexist to suggest that all women's in what they wear come back to men.

 

[PinkGoddess]

Well but i fail to see in what the way the fact that men and women are different has anything to do with high heels. Both men and women were not made to wear high heels. Expecting a women to wear high heels, just because she's a women, is indeed totally sexist.

It relates to high heels because of the issue that women are valued for their beauty more than men, and the underlying reasons for it.

Expecting a woman to wear heels is not sexist; enforcing that she must wear them if her appearance is unrelated to her work, is. We derive expectations simply based on what we perceive to be normal and commonly occurring, and since wearing heels for women is, there is nothing wrong with simply expecting a woman to.

 

[PinkGoddess]

That is nothing to do with men and frankly it's both offensive in a gernal sense, and heterosexist to suggest that all women's in what they wear come back to men.

How is that either offensive or heterosexist? Women seek to attract specific men, as well as enjoy the male attention their sexuality brings. It's certainly untrue that what women find appealing in fashion relates directly to men, but when it comes to items like heels, padded bras, short skirts, etc, it's not at all unreasonable to assume the motive of attracting the opposite sex is there.

 

[hautechild]

How is that either offensive or heterosexist? Women seek to attract specific men, as well as enjoy the male attention their sexuality brings.

Because not all women do. Believe me my choice to wear heels has nothing to do with men and I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that it does.

 

[fashionista-ta]

lots of bad things have existed throughout history but we've been doing a decent job of working through them in modern society. humans don't just come into the world as decent functioning members of society - we're naturally inclined to all sorts of destructive tendencies. racism, sexism, heterosexism, mysticism, war.

maybe 100 years ago we all should have just thrown up our hands and said "**** it, women have always been dominated by men in every culture (which isn't actually true but for the sake of argument I'll go with it), so let's just relinquish power in every sector of society". there is great diversity amongst women, I'd venture to say between me and you, and I don't care to be grouped in with you as if we fall under the same umbrella as human beings with the exact same nature, the same wants and needs etc.

we need to keep fighting for a humanistic view of every individual instead of acting like what is "natural" is always good.

where do you draw the line for when we should give up? how far is the expectation that we wear heels in the office from the expectation that we just stay out of the office altogether? I'm for expanding choice for both men and women in how they live their lives, and I know it's worth pursuing because we've not stopped progressing yet.

I've never seen mysticism grouped with racism as a social ill

 

[fashionista-ta]

Isn't it obvious that high heels are just another peacock attribute to the Homo sapiens female? It perks up the *** and shows that the woman is making a considerable effort to please men and compete with her peers. Of course men do too, but considerably less on the physical level.

In reality, except for what we can all see, precious little is *known* (and I mean this as reproducible, reliable results) about genetic racial/gender differences - because this is a field in its infancy and the draft of the human genome has only been around for 10 years. And even when we do have access to methods that will enable us to understand these issues better, this science interferes with political agendas more than any other natural science. So reliable results are going to be hard to come by for years to come, but conjecture and wishful thinking are already rampant and it will get worse.

When I wear heels, those motivations may not even enter into why I'm doing it ... how they make me feel is a primary motivation for me.

I don't need a scientific document to tell me what I already know I also think that genes are just part of the picture. I self-identify readily as a feminist, but I also find it quite obvious that men have superior upper-body strength, and women have better communication skills.

I do wear heels to work, but I don't do so at the expense of my health ... I typically alternate days between heels and flats. I agree that you really need to be able to walk in your shoes, and if you can't do so on a flat surface, you just look ridiculous. I see young girls walking in ridiculously high heels, and can't help but think of bound feet. I also remember an older executive who was 'walking' in heels in front of me ... teetering isn't really a strong enough word for what she was doing. Heels aren't lending you power if they make you an object of pity

 

[PinkGoddess]

Because not all women do. Believe me my choice to wear heels has nothing to do with men and I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that it does.

Of course no one would argue that every woman wears heels for men, but it's certainly not unreasonable to suggest that male attention contributes to the motives of most women, so I don't see how it could be offensive.