The Ownership of Creativity...

Phew, that took forever to get through. I have some points to make.

Patents and Copyright aren't really for the same purpose. Patents were actually made to ENCOURAGE sharing of ideas. Before patents, companies that developed (lets take the pharmaceuticals for example) a new drug would keep the design of that new drug as a secret. NOONE would benefit from that, except that company. People wouldn't be learning from other's research because everyone would be keeping it hidden. What patents allow is for the new research, the new discovery whatever, to be made public knowledge, then people can research and work on it and develop it. But it protects the original work in that if someone wanted to sell that product even in a slightly modified way, they'd have to pay a royalty. Then the patent runs out, and people can make the knock offs at competitive prices. That pharmaceutical company that is complaining about not being able to persue those new drugs because of patents is lying. What they're saying is that its a waste of time to persue it because if they found a marketable product there, they'd have to pay royalties to the original company, and it's more worthwhile (profit wise) to wait around till the patents wears off. Patents do not prevent people from copying the idea, it just prevents them from selling it as their own, and it prevents people from locking up new knowledge in the form of tradesecrets (VERY VERY bad for development of science/technology).

As for copyrights, musical notes can't be copyrighted (teh last I heard). Lyrics can be copyrigthed, but not the notes of a song. I think the judgement had to do with musical notes not actually being a language. That's why people can use the same tunes and not have to pay. If they actually SAMPLE the song (literally take the music straight from the record) there are some rules on the length that can be used before royalties, but I think that's more something the industry came up with, and may not be held by copyright law... Not sure about that. Same as everyone has been saying about ideas. You hear all the time about someone stealing someone's idea for a movie. Well, unless there is significant similarities between two products (must have some sort of written account for it, not just talked about) such as names, specific plot details, specific plot timeline, etc. then there may be a case, but if you had an idea about a "Showgirl (brulesque??) singer/prostitute, who is dying of TB, and is wooed by a writer, and then she tragically dies. Oh, and it's a musical". Even if it went on to INSPIRE Moulin Rouge, that person has no legal argument (I'm pretty sure) for royalties for offering the idea and inspiration. Though it would be bad publicity wise if it got around that the company is "ripping off" someone's ideas, so often they will compensate the original idea, though not legally bound to do so.

So, with regards to fashion... Yes, the exact model can be protected, but that includes stitching technique and material. Plus the Label is protected as a trademark.

Do I care? Not really. I wouldn't be able to afford a designer anyway, and if someone can make his product for hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper, it means the original prices were inflated anyway, and that i'm REALLY buying the name and not the clothes. People who want a good cut, good craftmanship, good material, good wear etc. will pay more for it, because they know the cost of good work. Someone who wants something that looks stylish on the surface, who will only wear it a couple seasons (so doesn't care really about how long it will last), and isn't going to be judged for the material, or workmanship by their peers, can get the "inspired but cheaper" looks. They shouldn't have to pay for all the rest, when all they want is the surface sheen.

Anyway, not a lot of people go for direct knock offs with things that bare the names "Gocci", and "Calvin Klain" (to avoid trademark laws). hehe. BUt then those people probably couldn't afford Gucci and Calvin Klein in the first place, so it's not like the knock offs are stealing business. It's just allowing people to dress how they like on either sides of the financial gap.

Anyway. It keeps designers on their toes, having to keep competitive, and earn the prices they attach to their labels.
 
sec said:
I have a question about the color trend. Who decides the "in" colors in every season? Trend forecast companies or International Color Consortium (ICC)? I heard that the members of ICC meet each year to discuss the color trend for 2 years later. Fashion designers take ICC's color recommendations and set the color combo in their designs.

:D ok, Trend offices/forecast companies ALSO consult ICC.. so, you can understand no? its basically the Trend Offices that do all forecasting and pre-planing for what is going to work and whats not, and of course this includes colour

FAUST: Can you elaborate on that? It would be very useful for one of my classes. Do you have any articles

there should be some articles from Premiere Vision, I'll try to locate and post here faust, for sure it has to do with bar/coding and it can be obvious only when scanned with somekind of special light :unsure:
it may debut during the new PV trade fair in March, i'll get back to you regarding this :flower:
 
Lena said:
there should be some articles from Premiere Vision, I'll try to locate and post here faust, for sure it has to do with bar/coding and it can be obvious only when scanned with somekind of special light :unsure:
it may debut during the new PV trade fair in March, i'll get back to you regarding this :flower:

Thanks, dear Lena, it would be so MUCH appreciated :flower:
 
Is there a thread somewhere that I can post the COLOR FORECAST OF 2006?
It may be useful for someone, but yet, some people (like one of my Prof.) thinks it is totally ridiculous to believe or event read about it. So, let me know if I should post it or not, the resource is not 200% right, but that's say it's about 98%.
 
Cypresses said:
Is there a thread somewhere that I can post the COLOR FORECAST OF 2006?
It may be useful for someone, but yet, some people (like one of my Prof.) thinks it is totally ridiculous to believe or event read about it. So, let me know if I should post it or not, the resource is not 200% right, but that's say it's about 98%.

Thanks, Lena!

Cypress, I'd love to read it...
 
Cypresses said:
Is there a thread somewhere that I can post the COLOR FORECAST OF 2006?
It may be useful for someone, but yet, some people (like one of my Prof.) thinks it is totally ridiculous to believe or event read about it. So, let me know if I should post it or not, the resource is not 200% right, but that's say it's about 98%.

I'd love to read it too!! Please post :flower:
 
Cypresses said:
Is there a thread somewhere that I can post the COLOR FORECAST OF 2006?
It may be useful for someone, but yet, some people (like one of my Prof.) thinks it is totally ridiculous to believe or event read about it. So, let me know if I should post it or not, the resource is not 200% right, but that's say it's about 98%.
yes...that would be wonderful...
you can post it in the trendspotting forum...
please start a new thread for it...

thank you...
 
Lena said:
my dear Scott, the Belgian school started way later than the 'japanese invasion' there is no question that they were extremely influenced by the Japanese esthetics...

Actually I was just reading an Interview with Anne Demuelmeester today in Index Magazine and they asked her about Rei Kawakubo being an inspiration and she said said no and named some suprising and unexpected designers. I will go look up the exact quote but I was suprised. She did talk about how in school she had an instructor who was in love with Chanel and tried to teach them how to make dresses like that and that there was a total rebellion against it amongst the students in her class.


I think the Antwerp Six by no means copied Japanese designers. I think it's more that they adopted their way of looking at garments and clothes. Miyake, Kawakubo, and Yamamoto showed them a new concept of how clothes can be made. They brought abstraction to fashion and the Belgians just ran with it.

One of the reasons why I think people like Rei are able to really make innovation and create something geniuenly new is that she has a very pure and strong artistic ideal behind her work. She is constantly trying to create something new, something she hasn't seen before. What is special about her is that she has a keen business sense to make it all financially feasable. She doesn't make her money buy making easiy to sell and unorginal garments.

I notice even with more progressive designers the clothes start to look the same. Especially a lot of the younger London designers. For me it seems the only true innovation is with the Belgians and the Japanese. You of course have people like Mcqueen who I feel is also very original but is rare.
 
Cypresses said:
Is there a thread somewhere that I can post the COLOR FORECAST OF 2006?
It may be useful for someone, but yet, some people (like one of my Prof.) thinks it is totally ridiculous to believe or event read about it. So, let me know if I should post it or not, the resource is not 200% right, but that's say it's about 98%.

:woot: as softie said, please, do share at the trendspotting section cypresses, looking forward :flower:
 
Mutterlein said:
I think the Antwerp Six by no means copied Japanese designers. I think it's more that they adopted their way of looking at garments and clothes. Miyake, Kawakubo, and Yamamoto showed them a new concept of how clothes can be made. They brought abstraction to fashion and the Belgians just ran with it.

That's exactly what I meant :flower: .

What issue of Index was it? The current one? Interviews with Ann are so rare, I'd much appreciate it.
 
sure, I'll post it next monday...why? Because I left the note in studio, as soon as i get back, I'll post it.
 
thx cypresses...that would be great!!...
 
Great thread :D and very intelligent and insightful arguments.....Now I will ruin the flow hehe sorry.:innocent:

These copyright laws will be hard in a way, and possibly not even worth it in the long run. It hasn’t stoped many aspects of the art and music industry, but often creates controversy; this is exactly like the fashion world. Some small aspects advance, some reside and copy, which is often unnoticed by the public eye. Ideas and creations from previous years are ‘re used’ ‘re vamped’, everything being borrowed, often looking exactly the same only with different materials.

This I think is the biggest issue, but the copyright laws will not change this. For the past 5 or 6 years I have seen so many items of clothing on the runway, that can be found in my mums wardrobe (atm im wearing most of her clothes argh :heart:) the only difference is the fabric is lacking a bit more now (patterns etc may be a tad better). Does anyone notice this? The garments are not constructed as greatly as say 15 years ago. I think this reflects the public in a way, we are becoming more relaxed, bit more lazy, not as creative, we have machines to think and work for us now, you don’t even need to be able to draw or construct garments to be a designer, you can just express your ideas get others to draw damn charlatans...... maybe I am very wrong feel free to correct me.

I too do not like copies, like LV bags, things that are incredibly obviously fake etc :angry:......However I don’t have the choice of purchasing the real thing when it comes to some clothing. I rather buy a beautiful piece of fabric and rub it on my skin, yes im a freak, but I rather make it myself..... am I copier because I cant afford it?:rolleyes:


 
Project: Intellectual Property and Fashion Design

I am thinking to do a project/paper for my sociology class about Intelectual Property and Fashion Design. I think that Fashion Design has resisted the IP war that has been going on in the copyright/patent related industries for the longest time, until recently. Designs used to be FREELY imitated, built upon, incorporated, rehashed, copied. Until recently that didn't seem to bother the fashion world. However, with recent law suits, such as LV v. Doonie & Boorke, and the recent ousting of Helmut Lang and Jil Sander who no longer own their names the situation has been changing.

What do you guys think? Any ideas/examples would be appreciated. Lena, I am particularly anxious to get that article about new fabrics with barcodes.

If this goes through, should I post the paper here?
 
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There must be a lot of sensitivity in this topic, though. Dooney and Bourke obviously copied Vuitton. However, many designers can draw similarities to one another and they may not even have looked at the other designer's work, but then they're sued for imitating? Sometimes, like in the LV v. D&B case, something should be done. Other times, however, it's hard to tell if they're being copied or not. I myself have designed things in my head and/or on paper and and then later on look at some designer's collection and noticed that it's been done before. I didn't copy, as I had never see that collection before. If that happens just with me imagining things in my head, imagine that on a larger scale with major designers.

Good idea for a paper, though, Faust. Very good. I really hope to see your paper soon and I hope it turns out really nicely for you. :flower:
 
faust...isn't this basically the topic we discussed earlier...?
who owns an idea?...

it's not a new phenomenon at all really...there are examples of cases from way back...the most notable being the one where YSL won a suit against Ralph Lauren...

if anything...i believe it has actually gotten more lax...because with the number of knock-offs out there now...it's nearly impossible to chase them all down...

i'm going to merge this with the other thread...:flower:
 
softgrey said:
faust...isn't this basically the topic we discussed earlier...?
who owns an idea?...

it's not a new phenomenon at all really...there are examples of cases from way back...the most notable being the one where YSL won a suit against Ralph Lauren...

if anything...i believe it has actually gotten more lax...because with the number of knock-offs out there now...it's nearly impossible to chase them all down...

i'm going to merge this with the other thread...:flower:

Actually, I would've preferred it to be a separate topic in hope of keeping it going a little. Oh, well...
 
I'm interning in the "inspiration" library at the company of an established female designer. She has literally spent millions establishing her own library of vintage clothes from the 17th to this century's fashion. The designers check the garments out, reference the hell out of them (I've seen the originals that they've copied), and then return them. Sometimes they even cut pieces out of the museum-quality pieces. Tragic.

Also, Faust mentioned on the first page about the article where designers send their assistance. That place is Gallaghers, on 126 East 12th Street, Lower Floor
New York. They have a gallery on the corner nearby.
Cheers.
 
From today's WWD:

Movado Files Suit Against Gucci
By Liza Casabona


NEW YORK —
Movado LLC and Movado Group Inc. filed a lawsuit against Gucci Group alleging that the luxury giant sold watches that infringe on the trademark of Movado's Museum line of wristwatches.

The documents, filed on Aug. 2 in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, cite six allegations, including trademark infringement, unfair competition, trademark dilution and injury to business reputation, and deceptive trade practices. The suit names Gucci Group N.V., Luxury Timepieces International SA, Gucci Group Watches Inc. and Gucci America Inc. as defendants.

Movado said in the lawsuit that its Museum line of wristwatches and timepieces has a unique look. The items do not have hour markers on their faces, and have a single, circular dot at the 12 o'clock position in place of a number. The dial design was selected by the Museum of Modern Art in New York for its permanent collection in 1960, according to court documents.

Gucci allegedly sold wristwatches that were "confusingly similar in appearance to the Museum Wristwatches," at stores such as Nordstrom, according to the court papers. The lawsuit said Gucci knowingly used the Museum Design Trademark with an intent to "misappropriate
Movado's goodwill."

Movado is seeking a permanent injunction against Gucci from using any trademarks or trade dress of its products, and for Gucci to recall any products that currently infringe on its trademarks.

The company also asked for unspecified monetary damages.

Gucci America did not return a call requesting comment.
 
Thanks Atelier for the article. Perfect example of one company trying to pry some money away from another. Notice that neither company is American (although they have US divisions, of course), yet the suit was filed in Manhattan. Lesson #1 of international finance law I learned from law school via mrs. faust - companies will try to sue in America because nowhere else in the world courts award as high monetary damages.
 

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