Maria Grazia Chiuri - Designer, Creative Director of Christian Dior

[Mutterlein]

Galliano already did a mata jari for Dior

What on Earth does that have to do with me liking the pre-fall collection?

 

[susseinmcswanny]

Maria Grazia celebrates them and then what do they get out of it. A view from someone on instagram? Trying to make Dior some sort of "let's bring the world together and celebrate one another!" for social media plebs is such a f*cking joke. Teetering on the fence I see it falling onto the side of virtue signaling over a genuine celebratory one. Don't pretend to be something you're not to sell the cheaper stuff to woke people on credit cards. Your clothing is for the people who exploit these workers you're so called "celebrating". What Karl did was downright authentic unapologetic elitism, which is what Chanel stands for. He created for the actual Chanel clients of the world. And it looked good.

 

[Lola701]

I mean everybody in the world practically dress the same with variations. The only way people stand out today is through their folklore…
So either if the collection is designed by Larl, Gaultier, MGC or whoever, for it to be specific in terms of culture, it has to be inspired by some sort of folklore or cultural elements of that said country. The good thing about MGC os that we can almost know what it looks like.
I just hope it won’t be as terrible as her Greek and Spanish collections…

 

[Mutterlein]

Maria Grazia celebrates them and then what do they get out of it. A view from someone on instagram? Trying to make Dior some sort of "let's bring the world together and celebrate one another!" for social media plebs is such a f*cking joke. Teetering on the fence I see it falling onto the side of virtue signaling over a genuine celebratory one. Don't pretend to be something you're not to sell the cheaper stuff to woke people on credit cards. Your clothing is for the people who exploit these workers you're so called "celebrating". What Karl did was downright authentic unapologetic elitism, which is what Chanel stands for. He created for the actual Chanel clients of the world. And it looked good.

These aren't sweatshops that she's talking about and the show isn't an act of charity. The fact that you erroneously assume so by accusing it of being virtue signaling betrays your own prejudice towards brown people and India.

It's about giving an Indian atelier the same recognition as Lesage.

As @Lola701 mentioned, given the ongoing conversation we've been having here on the fashion spot, it seems like this recognition is long overdue.

What do they get out of it? Well, not having people like you dismiss it as some charity, number one. But obviously the awareness and press they will recieve is worth millions. Duh.

And the idea that Karl should be applauded for his old world, colonialist take on India simply because it's "beautiful and authentic" (which of course are extremely subjective) is absurd.

Although I do agree it was beautiful, that doesn't mean that it's the only way to go or above reproach and it doesn't mean that MGC's collection isn't beautiful either.

The fact that so many of you already lump India into being this one monolithic thing that is interchangeable is already problematic.

 

[LadyJunon]

Regardless of whether Maria's "Indian" collection is respectful of the culture or not, it's still be disgustingly bland and void of glamour like the rest of her work anyway. That's why I hate it.

 

[Mutterlein]

Regardless of whether Maria's "Indian" collection is respectful of the culture or not, it's still be disgustingly bland and void of glamour like the rest of her work anyway. That's why I hate it.

Fair

 

[jeanclaude]

It's about giving an Indian atelier the same recognition as Lesage.

The ethical thing to do would be to pay that indian atelier the same amount of money they pay to Lesage...something that sadly is not going to happen never and ever.

Recognition is great...but you cannot buy food at a supermarket using recognition as a currency.

Well, what can we expect from a big company...?? Just marketing.

 

[Mutterlein]

The ethical thing to do would be to pay that indian atelier the same amount of money they pay to Lesage...something that sadly is not going to happen never and ever.

Recognition is great...but you cannot buy food at a supermarket using recognition as a currency.

Well, what can we expect from a big company...?? Just marketing.[/

Have you even researched the atelier they work with? It's pretty world class.

I assure you they're in no need of handouts or charity. They're doing just fine from Dior's huge orders.

 

[Mutterlein]

Well, what can we expect from a big company...?? Just marketing.

What do you think of fashion show is?

 

[jeanclaude]

Have you even researched the atelier they work with? It's pretty world class.

I assure you they're in no need of handouts or charity. They're doing just fine from Dior's huge orders.

I don´t know how much LVMH pays that indian atelier for they work...but taking into consideration that worker rights are sadly like a sci-fi tale in India...I truly don´t think the embroiderers earn half the wage of a Lesage european worker.

Yes, of course a fashion show is marketing. But I meant marketing used as a tool to make a big company look ethical...when it is just a delusion.

 

[Mutterlein]

I don´t know how much LVMH pays that indian atelier for they work...but taking into consideration that worker rights are sadly like a sci-fi tale in India...I truly don´t think the embroiderers earn half the wage of a Lesage european worker.

Yes, of course a fashion show is marketing. But I meant marketing used as a tool to make a big company look ethical...when it is just a delusion.

None of this is about ethics, it's about celebrating the workshops they work with.

Chanel does this every year.

 

[jeanclaude]

None of this is about ethics, it's about celebrating the workshops they work with.

Chanel does this every year.

Yes, I understand the celebrating the workshops part...but I cannot help but think if they would hire those indian ateliers if the price would be the same as Lesage...

Can´t help disliking big brands either...

 

[Lola701]

Yes, I understand the celebrating the workshops part...but I cannot help but think if they would hire those indian ateliers if the price would be the same as Lesage...

Can´t help disliking big brands either...

I got your point but in reality, it’s a good thing that they works with their Ateliers too. Chanel owns Lesage & Co so in a way they can do whatever they want like charge a ridiculous T-shirt for 5K just because it’s embroidered by Lesage.

LVMH works with others ateliers in Paris than those owned by Chanel but indeed it’s a good thing in a way that they showcase the workshop in India to maybe eliminate the kind of bad reputation that might have. Dior RTW in terms of quality today has nothing to envy to Chanel…

‘Chanel’s biggest quality was that Karl pushed for research development in sometimes the most ridiculous way (concrete embroideries).

Of course Dior wouldn’t go to India if it wasn’t cheaper but they wouldn’t go there either if they weren’t experts in that for years aswell.

 

[jeanclaude]

I got your point but in reality, it’s a good thing that they works with their Ateliers too. Chanel owns Lesage & Co so in a way they can do whatever they want like charge a ridiculous T-shirt for 5K just because it’s embroidered by Lesage.

LVMH works with others ateliers in Paris than those owned by Chanel but indeed it’s a good thing in a way that they showcase the workshop in India to maybe eliminate the kind of bad reputation that might have. Dior RTW in terms of quality today has nothing to envy to Chanel…

‘Chanel’s biggest quality was that Karl pushed for research development in sometimes the most ridiculous way (concrete embroideries).

Of course Dior wouldn’t go to India if it wasn’t cheaper but they wouldn’t go there either if they weren’t experts in that for years aswell.

What pisses me off is the fact they don´t pay indian workers equally to their french counterparts. Indian embroiderers have the right to earn the same wage as french ones. They work at the same level, after all.

But of course greedy conglomerates don´t care about that.

 

[Lola701]

What pisses me off is the fact they don´t pay indian workers equally to their french counterparts. Indian embroiderers have the right to earn the same wage as french ones. They work at the same level, after all.

But of course greedy conglomerates don´t care about that.

Fair enough but if they pay the Indians workers equally to the French counterparts, then they should use the French counterparts…
The reality lies in the labor laws. In France it’s all by hours and those craftmen/women are considered as « Artisans ». I don’t know if such a status is that defined in India.

Most of the petites mains have decent salaries but great advantages but they are nowhere paid as much as people might believe they are…Middle class.

We don’t know but we can hope that the workers in those ateliers in India are fairly paid by their bosses, who are in contracts with LVMH…

It’s the similar issue with some factories in Italy and a lot of subcontractors in the luxury market. The conglomerates don’t have direct involvement in the day to day operations so they can close their eyes on the sneaky ways everything is done (while being totally aware) and wash they hands in case of scandals.

 

[Mutterlein]

What pisses me off is the fact they don´t pay indian workers equally to their french counterparts. Indian embroiderers have the right to earn the same wage as french ones. They work at the same level, after all.

But of course greedy conglomerates don´t care about that.

Things don't cost the same in India as they do in France. This is not greed, it's basic economics.

I think the workers in the ateliers that Dior works with are being paid good wages for their cost of living. Designer friends of mine who work for Dior's competitors can't afford to use them. Again, these aren't sweatshops.

Also, it seems silly to vilify Dior for a practice that everybody does. ALL embroideries are made in India, including haute couture.

Small brands, large brands---they ALL do it in India.

ALL OF THEM.

 

[jeanclaude]

Things don't cost the same in India as they do in France. This is not greed, it's basic economics.

I think the workers in the ateliers that Dior works with are being paid good wages for their cost of living. Designer friends of mine who work for Dior's competitors can't afford to use them. Again, these aren't sweatshops.

Also, it seems silly to vilify Dior for a practice that everybody does. ALL embroideries are made in India, including haute couture.

Small brands, large brands---they ALL do it in India.

ALL OF THEM.

If big companies go to India (or any other country with poor or no work regulations) it is because the cost of the labour is cheaper than in Europe.

They make it to cut expenses and get more profit from it. And they are making profit from the fact that workers in those countries are being exploited, comparing their work conditions to those from European countries.

If all brands do embroideries in India, then I am not going to vilify Dior...I am going to vilify all the brands. ALL OF THEM...because they are making profit from people in a country lacking proper work regulations.

 

[Norden]

There’s also another issue in Europe, less craftsmen and artisans for the amount of work we have is driving up price and lead times. As said earlier a lot of brands produce in India, some with more responsibility than others, dries van noten has all ways credited his ateliers outside Europe and supplied them with consistent work.

To be honest I think mgc iteration of dior is better for these artisans, she’s obsessed with these kind of stories, and I’m sure she’ll platform it well. To bad it’s going to be a snooze fest.

 

[Lola701]

If big companies go to India (or any other country with poor or no work regulations) it is because the cost of the labour is cheaper than in Europe.

They make it to cut expenses and get more profit from it. And they are making profit from the fact that workers in those countries are being exploited, comparing their work conditions to those from European countries.

If all brands do embroideries in India, then I am not going to vilify Dior...I am going to vilify all the brands. ALL OF THEM...because they are making profit from people in a country lacking proper work regulations.

Beyond the utopia, what’s the solution then?

‘If we are being honest, the « Made in Italy » is similar. The authorities after the war were clever to market it as a stamp of quality but essentially, brands have always produced in Italy because the cost of labour is cheaper than in France and because they have Ateliers of families specialized in techniques and more than that, willing to challenge themselves in terms of techniques and creativity.
That’s how Alta Moda started and that’s how the Italian fashion industry has been build. The lack of clear legislation in terms of labour allows the existence of the « Made In Italy » Chinese sweatshops in the country.

Portugal today is one of the hottest place in textile today. A brand like AMI can produce almost all of their clothes there and have the prices they have because the cost of labour is not the same.

I totally get your point from a philosophical pov but it’s still a business, an industry, not a charity. If we want equality all along with scale economy, it’s a whole system that we have to break down. Even more in a country like India where the hierarchy in society is still very present.
If a seamstress that works in Mumbai makes the same as the one who works in Paris when the cost of living is not the same, what would it be for the whole society compared to a doctor or most quote on quote « essential workers »?

‘They have to be competitive in the market to attract investors. Unfortunately, it’s foreigners who sees the value in those type of industries.

‘And I think it’s interesting that India has always set itself apart compared to China when it comes to making clothes. On one hand there was a really mass market appeal when India it’s really about the idea of luxury or at least, a high value product.

 

[Drusilla_]

What pisses me off is the fact they don´t pay indian workers equally to their french counterparts. Indian embroiderers have the right to earn the same wage as french ones. They work at the same level, after all.

But of course greedy conglomerates don´t care about that.

This is one of the stupidest takes in this thread, are you unaware of the concept of 'cost of living' or 'purchasing power parity'?

Anyone doing a given job in India would get paid less in absolute terms than their French counterpart whether that's an embroiderer or a doctor, the difference is that the money they do get paid goes the same distance in their country as a French worker's would in France so they have comparable living standards. This claim that it's pure concern for artisans that drives this sudden wave of negativity towards embroidery done in India (since the usual acceptable excuses i.e. inferior quality and sweatshops - don't apply in this specific case), isn't actually fooling anyone.

And some types of embroidery that Indian workers specialise in, didn't exist in France to begin with. Good luck finding a French atelier to embroider leather bags or shoes lol.